BUCK: We are joined by our friend Zuby now. He is a podcaster, rapper, author, and general life-and-fitness guru. He was with us in the studio in New York. Now he joins us remote. Zuby, great to have you, sir.

ZUBY: Hey, how’s it going, guys?

BUCK: We’re all right. I want you to… ’cause Clay and I… You’ve been a voice for sanity in an era of insane covid policy for a long time here, and I feel like there’s this general, “Oh, we’re all supposed to be so relieved at this point because the covid madness seems to be receding.” I’m trying to raise the alarm here. First of all, I’m not letting it go.

I’m not letting go the bad decisions ’cause there’s been no accountability, but I’m also concerned, Zuby, that this stuff could all come back. Here is HH secretary, Health and Human Services Secretary, Becerra saying that, you know, I mean, some people are gonna keep wearing masks. Play 20.

ZUBY: This is not a light switch. You just can’t go on and off. Uhh, it — it’s a matter of doing this, knowing the science, being thoughtful about how we do this. There will be people who continue to wear masks. Some have to. Those who are immunocompromised, under 5 years of age, children still aren’t vaccinated so we still have reason to be cautious. But look, we’re in a different place today and we can move forward, and we know what it takes and we’re putting the tools together. That medicine cabinet is a lot more full.

BUCK: So bureaucrat here saying I guess your 4-year-old still has to mask up. I mean, this is a psychosis, Zuby. What do we do about it?

ZUBY: Man, I mean, this is a tricky situation because, you know, (chuckles) I had a tweet go viral the other day saying that the science is different in every city and country and so if you don’t like what the science is where you are, then you can simply relocate. I’m originally from the U.K. In my home country of England, all restrictions, all mandates have been dropped.

In England now even if you test positive with covid, there’s not even an obligation to self-isolate. The entire thing has been totally downgraded. So, it’s interesting that England of all the Anglosphere countries in the West was the first one out of all this. I’m surprised that we managed to outfreedom the USA. So, look, there are people who have gained a lot of power, money, and control through this.

And they don’t want to let this go. They’ve been having the time of their lives. They have never been able to have so much control and power and relevance over people, and they’ve been saying nonsense that doesn’t make sense from the very beginning. I’m not sure who that was that was just talking —

BUCK: HHS secretary, the Health and Human Services secretary. So big bureaucracy. Yeah.

ZUBY: Yeah. The notion that 4-year-olds should be wearing masks or remotely concerned about anything or that should even be considering taking a vaccination for something that essentially has a 0% chance of killing or hospitalizing, the whole thing’s insane. It’s been insane from the beginning. We’ve known for two years at this point that that is one demographic that we really do not need to worry about, thank God.

But this has nothing to do with science. It hasn’t been for a long time. Nothing to do with science, nothing to do with keeping people safe, nothing to do with logic, rationality. You can blow infinite holes through this entire narrative. So I think that the people, the population in every given city, region, nation, and so on need to just take the power back.

I think people need to stop going along with nonsense that they know to be nonsense, and I’ve been saying this from very early on. But I think, overall, that’s the solution. And they’re only gonna push as hard as people will tolerate, which is why even in the USA you have some places where essentially never had any restrictions or very, very limited. And you’ve got places which are still getting — you know, they’re still doing all this crazy stuff. It’s not about science. It depends on the people, and the people always have the power.

CLAY: Zuby, one of the first places I saw you was when you decided that you were going to become the greatest wait for in human history and broke many of the women’s weightlifting records.

I keep hearing about how biological men don’t have any physical strength advantage over women in 2019…

So watch me DESTROY the British Women’s deadlift record without trying.

P.S. I identified as a woman whilst lifting the weight. Don’t be a bigot. 😂 pic.twitter.com/dYRraHCB42

— ZUBY: New Album Out Now (@ZubyMusic) February 26, 2019

ZUBY: Mmm-hmm. (laughing)

CLAY: We just had a setting in the last hour where we talked about Penn’s transgender swimmer. You were satirizing the absurdity of the idea that men and women are competing on an even playing field given that men are bigger, stronger, and faster than women. What do you think about the world that we’re in now where the greatest — and I’m using quotation marks here — “women’s swimmer” of all time is a guy who decided to become a woman, and now potentially wants to become a member of the 2024 women’s swimming Olympic team?

ZUBY: (laughing)

CLAY: How crazy? I mean, you can’t even satirize this.

ZUBY: Well, as the British women’s deadlift-and-bench press record holder, I support this move.

CLAY: (laughing)

ZUBY: Look, this might be the level of absurdity that things have to go to for people to wake up. Maybe you need LeBron transitioning and going into the WNBA, we need Usain Bolt transitioning and breaking women’s sprinting records. This is what it takes for people to just wake up out of this psychosis of stupidity and fear and cowardice, then so be it. Honestly the people who…

I don’t want to sound like I’m victim banning here but the individuals who are competing against this individual, they’re the ones who should be taking the stand. If I’m a female swimmer and I’m losing to a male supposedly in a female sport, then I and my team and my fellow competitors should take a stand and say, “No, we’re not competing against him. You know, this is not fair, it doesn’t make sense, they need to stand together.”

And again because of this nonsensical political correctness and this pandemic of cowardice which has been going on in the west for over a decade now, people don’t want to do it people don’t want to tell the truth people don’t want to take a stand on any principle and you’ll hear them whine and complain in the background, but they won’t take a stand. And unless people are willing to take a stand, then they’re gonna get… They’re gonna get what they get. And it’s hard to defend people who refuse to defend themselves.

BUCK: We’re speaking to podcaster, author, rapper, and, what was it, global women’s deadlift champion, technically speaking, Zuby.

ZUBY: (laughing)

BUCK: Those things are all true although I guess technically. But Zuby, I do wonder if at some point one of the ways that people may be to take your experiment, which we all know you did to prove a point.

ZUBY: Mmm-hmm.

BUCK: But maybe the system has to be brought down in some ways or rather the edifice is being created here of lies by people doing just that, someone saying, “Well, I’m going to transition. Well, I’m not going to.” How do they even determine these things? I mean, for the purposes of professional sports, they’re trying to now set up some kind of testing regimen about how much testosterone…

You can’t take additional testosterone. But, I mean, in the case of Lia Thomas, you’ve had testosterone therapy, Lia Thomas has had testosterone therapy for over 10 years already, so to speak, by being a male. So it feels like, how do we bring this thing to a halt? Like, when does it reach the or run into the brick wall of reality in a way that even the left has to admit?

ZUBY: Well, I don’t want it to get to the stage where females are completely getting destroyed or even physically hurt or completely driven out of their own sports. But that is the logical conclusion of this, if people allow it to continue. I mean, when you allow mistruth and you allow lies and you allow coward to us completely take root in a society, this is where you end up.

Everybody knows that this is absurd. Everyone knows. Does anyone really…? Are there really people out there in this world who believe that males and females are exactly same biologically? Of course, we don’t. It’s not true across any animal species, let alone human beings. It’s why we have sports separated to begin with. It’s why you have male prisons and female prisons.

It’s why you have male bathrooms and female bathrooms, et cetera — and, by the way, this is all to protect women, right? It’s not that men’s sports are gonna suddenly start getting flooded with female competitors. That’s not a concern — and the fact that it’s not a concern in itself shows how absurd this whole thing is. Why is it only a one-way situation? For all the people saying, “Oh, there’s no advantages.”

It’s like, “Okay. Well, let’s get some females transitioning to claim they’re men and let’s see them compete in American football or rugby for basketball or anything. ” They can’t. So why is that? Because there’s a difference. And honestly it blows my mind. It’s been three years since I had that deadlift video go viral, but it truly amazes me that this has been a debate going on now for over five years. I’m like, how is this even…?

How is this even a debate? How is this even on the table? This shouldn’t be something that people are even taking sides on. It’s not something that should be politicized. Also, it’s humorous in a way, and there’s nothing funnier than people who have been talking about “following the science” for the past two years who then will tell you with a straight face that males and females are the same or that men with menstruate or get pregnant or whatever.

The whole thing is absurd. But as I said, people need to be willing to speak out. It can’t just be me or you or, like, a couple people being willing to broach the topic and speak the truth. It needs it needs a majority, and I know the majority agrees with us; but unless they’re willing to say so, then they don’t matter.

CLAY: You know, what’s interesting, Zuby, is it’s not even a majority, right? Because if this were a thing where 45% of people felt one way and 55% felt another way — or even 50-50 which is the case with a lot of political issues today — I’m sure you noticed this, and this is what is so fascinating about an issue like this, this is like 95 to 5.

ZUBY: (laughing)

CLAY: There’s almost no one that will even defend idea that a male swimmer can decide to become a woman and then set all-time women’s records, right?

ZUBY: Right.

CLAY: And yet what you have is, to your point, a conspiracy of silence because even though this is a 95-to-5 issue, people are so afraid of the 5, right, the 5%, the tiny minority there, labeling them, that they’re afraid to say something.

ZUBY: Mmm.

CLAY: That’s why I always say if you take it outside of the world of men’s and women’s athletics — like, just consider boxing. Nobody out there is gonna say, “Hey, Floyd Mayweather is a great boxer, right? Mike Tyson back in the day was a great boxer.” We wouldn’t let them fight against each other because Mike Tyson would probably kill Floyd Mayweather because he’s a lot bigger. That’s the equivalent of male-female difference. And yet people are terrified to really say it in the world of sports.

ZUBY: Exactly. And it’s not simply about fairness. It’s about truth, and this is the underlying thing with this issue. It’s like, if we as a society give up on objective truth, right — we give up on objective truth — then we’re in serious trouble. So for me the implications of this are way deeper than fairness and treating women fairly or protecting women and so on. Sure that’s a part of it, but it’s also just about recognizing reality.

CLAY: Yeah.

ZUBY: We need to be able to agree on objective reality. If we can’t do that on something as simple as male or female, something we’ve been able to agree on forever — and which, you know, a 2-year-old can tell the difference between a male and a female inherently. If we give up on that, then you could brainwash people to believe pretty much anything, and that’s not a situation that I think it’s not a situation we want to be in where people are lying and are essentially forced to uphold lies.

I think that’s a problem we’ve had, again, over the past two years with this entire nonsensical narrative around this virus where there have been so many lies and so much deception and people not willing to tell the truth. It leads to bad places and it’s led to bad places in history. So I’m always someone who’s interested in the truth, upholding it when we know what it is and trying to find it when we’re not totally sure what it is.

That’s why we have these discussions and debates and conversations, because, yeah, sure, sometimes it’s hard to know what the truth is or there’s a range of different opinions. But we need to be able to at least exist in the same reality ’cause if we’re trying to do math and I’m saying 2 + 2 = 4 and you’re saying 2 + 2 = 5, then we’ve broken the entire system.

BUCK: Zuby, where can folks go to follow your work and hear what you’ve got going on day to day?

ZUBY: Yeah, sure you can follow me on all social media @ZubyMusic — that’s Z-u-b-y music — and you can find my music and podcast on all platforms. Just search my name, Zuby, Z-u-b-y, and you will find me.

BUCK: Zuby, thanks so much, man. Great to have you on the show again.

ZUBY: Most welcome. Take care.