Vivek Ramaswamy on Battling Wokeism and Running for President

CLAY: We are joined now by the author of Woke, Inc. and also the founder of Strive. He has been fighting battles that are significant about all this woke craziness and also the ESG. Also, the other book, Nation of Victims. Vivek with us now. Thanks for taking the time to join us. Do you feel like we are winning the battle against wokeism or do you feel like the woke virus is still spreading?

RAMASWAMY: I think it is still spreading, but it has reached a steady state. So we went through a couple of years where it was just spiking; now it feels like we’ve actually stopped its momentum, but we’ve just reached, unfortunately, a new steady state where we just assume that this has to now be part of our culture — to assume that you have to, at least in some way, take into account the person or someone’s skin color. When you’re making a hiring decision — in some way, assume that your gender identity is an important part of what we need to teach kids.

And so in a certain sense, I think that we’ve lost the medium-term battle as we’ve just accepted these new norms. But I don’t think it has to stay that way forever. I just think one of the things the conservative movement needs to do better in pushing back against this. This isn’t just to push back, but to actually offer an affirmative alternative vision of identity and American identity, and I think that that’s part of what we’ve been missing for why we haven’t been able to dilute this to irrelevance so far.

CLAY: No doubt. Nikki Haley kind of hinted at that in her announcement today. I know that you’re thinking about running for president as well. Why would you run if you do run and what did you think of Nikki Haley’s announcement today?

RAMASWAMY: So, actually, I haven’t had a chance to see her announced the speech, so I don’t want to comment on it without seeing it. I’m a bit busy with a few other things today. But look, to me, I just think that we live in a moment where my generation — I think most Americans actually — are so hungry for a cause. They’re hungry for purpose and meaning and identity at a point in our national history where the things that used to fill that void — things like faith, patriotism, hard work, even family — have receded.

And that’s what creates this black hole of an identity that my generation — I’d say “our generation” — suffers from. And I see that as an opportunity for the conservative movement. I think if we can fill that vacuum, fill that void with a vision of American national identity that runs so deep, that is how we dilute the poison to irrelevance. And, you know, in my mind, if you look at people my age or younger and you ask them, “What does it mean to be an American in the year 2023?” What do you get? You get a blank stare in response.

And I just think that the Republican Party can do better. It can deliver a powerful answer to that question. And then if we do that — and only if we do that — can we then face the actual challenges we face on the global stage, like the rise of Communist China abroad. And so that’s going to be, you know, I think the central point of… I think it should be the center point of this race. If I enter it, that’s exactly why I would be the one entering it. But, you know, it’s less about the question of the Who to me and more about the question of the what and the why.

What agenda do we stand for? Why do we stand for it? And just to revive basic rules of the road in this country like merit, the idea that you get ahead not on the color of your skin but in the content of your contributions. Free speech and open debate. That, too, is part of what it means to be American — that the people we elect to run the government — How about this one? — are the people who actually run the government rather than a cancerous federal bureaucracy that metastasizes like a cancer. These aren’t even partisan ideas, though I identify as a conservative.

These are basic rules of the road of what it means to be American. And if we can answer that question, then I think we’re well on our way towards a national revival. And, you know, to tell you the truth, this isn’t the 9-9-9 Plan or a Social Security reform package, but I can put in a binder in hand to another candidate to pursue. I think that these are the kinds of ideas that you have to believe in deep in your own bones. You have to have played a role in originating yourself in order to actually fully realize this vision, which is why I’m taking this so seriously.

CLAY: We’re talking to Vivek Ramaswamy, great author, and as you are talking with him, contemplating his own run for president. You mentioned this idea of diversity and inclusion, which has metastasized. I think that’s well said into a situation where many people are being elevated above their talent level. I think the Biden administration is a perfect example of that.

RAMASWAMY: Mmm-hmm.

CLAY: I’ve got a poll question up right now. I’m curious how you would and can’t take all three. I think the only reason Kamala Harris got the VP job is because she’s a black woman, I think pretty much the only reason is, well, Mayor Pete is in this administration is because he’s a gay guy, and I think Karine Jean-Pierre is the White House press secretary because she’s a gay woman. All of those individuals have failed. Right?

RAMASWAMY: Mmm-hmm.

CLAY: They’re doing very poor jobs at the job of which they have. Which one of those do you think has done the worst job so far?

RAMASWAMY: Ooo, that’s. That’s a very. So I would give you Mayor Pete. Mayor Pete has done the worst job, because thankfully, Kamala Harris has stayed away from doing work as much as she possibly can. People complain she didn’t go to the border. My view is the less work she does, the better it is for the country.

CLAY: Yes.

RAMASWAMY: So in a weird way, her not doing anything substantive was actually a great form of national service. But I think Pete has been in a very different position. I mean, you look at the software glitches that caused planes in this country to not be able to fly. You look in my home state where I’m talking to you now from in Ohio. Trains literally falling off tracks, potentially creating environmental and public health disasters, but talking instead — I mean, I’m not making this up — days ago about “construction diversity,” instead; obsessing endlessly about climate change when you know what the things if people are going to die of in this country and that community in Ohio or elsewhere, it’s not going to be climate change.

It’s going to be cancer from that from spills — chemical spills of infrastructure — that’s rotting and being poorly managed. And I just think that, look, if I did take a take a run at this for the 2024 cycle, I’m going after, I think, some of the sacred cows of our time. I think affirmative action is one sacred cow. I think this climate religion is another. I think we need to take both of them to the slaughterhouse. And the reason that we’re not doing it is because we’re hiding behind this identarian view of rewarding people and putting them in positions of power because of the genetic characteristics they inherited from the day they’re born, rather than whether or not they’re good at the job.

And I think there’s a separate problem altogether. You know who you didn’t ask about was Joe Biden who is the person who we actually elected to be president of the United States. And so the sad part is people who are really running the show are this managerial bureaucratic class underneath him. And that’s the real problem, I think, about merit in government. At the very least, let’s make sure the people we elect to run the government are the ones who actually run the government rather than this managerial class that’s then staffed by people who are put their positions. Voters aren’t Voters weren’t ready to elect Kamala Harris whether or not she was a black woman, but are appointed to those positions in part because of these non-meritocratic criteria. That is a big part of the problem.

CLAY: Last question for you, Vivek — and I appreciate you hanging out with us here. You were talking about the lack of purpose, the fact that there may not be necessarily, especially among young people, a cohesive idea of what America is. I’m going to talk on this tomorrow. But I was reading this morning in The Wall Street Journal — and I just want to hit you with these numbers. This is the percentage of high school students in the past year who experienced “persistent feelings of sadness or hopelessness.” Fifty-seven of girls in high school experienced that, and 30% of girls say they seriously considered attempting suicide. I mean, those are staggering numbers. They are continuing to skyrocket.

RAMASWAMY: Mmm-hmm. Staggering.

CLAY: My theory is, Vivek, that it’s connected to social media, especially for teenage girls. How do we change this?

RAMASWAMY: So, look, you’re hitting on these are exactly the themes that motivate me to maybe take this next step. There’s this wave of depression, anxiety, a mental health epidemic. Why do you think that is? It is because we as human beings are wired to be called to a higher purpose. And so when we lose that sense of purpose and meaning, we’re lost. Then we tell that next generation — the next thing that’s actually even worse about this is we tell them — that you can’t talk about it in the open. So now you have a loss of purpose.

On one hand, you have a culture that teaches these kids that they can’t actually share their true thoughts in the open. That’s the new censorious culture that we live in. And then against that backdrop, what is social media do? It takes those and picks up those insecurities and puts them on algorithmic steroids. In my view, is, look, if you can’t smoke an addictive cigarette until the age of 18, I don’t think you should be able to use an addictive social media product, at least until the age of 16 either.

CLAY: Yeah.

RAMASWAMY: That’s not a partisan point. But I think that it’s something that even the principled libertarian — I used to identify as a libertarian, I don’t anymore. But even a principled libertarian would say that that doesn’t the principle of liberty doesn’t apply to these kids. Kids should not be able to use addictive, toxic products, at least until they’re fully developed, at least age 16 for social media. But that’s still just symptomatic therapy. That’s still a Band-Aid. The deeper cancer is the loss of purpose, the loss of meaning, the loss of identity. I think we in the conservative movement can do better, and I hope we’ll play a role in whatever way I can in leading us to do better in filling that void of purpose and then creating a culture where we’re actually able to have open conversation again in this country rather than this culture of thought suppression and censorship even in the next generation.

CLAY: Great stuff, as always. How can people find you, Vivek, if they’ve liked what you’ve said today?

RAMASWAMY: They can find me on Twitter at @VivekGRamaswamy. You know, it’s spelled the usual way (chuckles) and the VivekRamaswamy.com has some information on my on my books, and stay tuned. You know I’m going to be making a decision in the relatively near term.

CLAY: Appreciate it, my man. Have a good day.

RAMASWAMY: Thank you, guys.