CLAY: Let’s start with Wyoming where Liz Cheney’s political career as a representative for Wyoming is going to come to a close. Harriet Hageman is going to absolute destroy her. She’s going to lose by 20-plus points in a state where her father, Dick Cheney, was certainly legendary. And she’s gonna make herself a martyr based on those results, Buck, and she’s going to argue, oh, this is all because I stood up to Donald Trump. I mean, Dick Cheney’s already done an advertisement where he calls Donald Trump the biggest threat to United States democracy, I think, basically in the history of the country, which is so over the top and absurd that I think all of you are kind of rolling your eyes at the idea.

And you know politics can make strange bedfellows which suddenly Democrats are heralding Dick Cheney as a tremendous hero when he was — they made movies about how he was the most dangerous and awful Republican ever. And they blamed everything they didn’t like in George W. Bush’s administration, by and large, on Dick Cheney and now suddenly he’s a hero because he doesn’t like Donald Trump.

Now, Buck, let’s start with Wyoming. I think that Liz Cheney is going to run for president and those same losers out there who have been anti-Trump — I don’t even know what their — the Lincoln Project or whatever those losers are called. They’ve got a couple websites. They will raise tens of millions of dollars. They will give it to her. They will let her campaign as a Republican. She will get no support but they will try to get her on the ballot then as an independent candidate so that she can steal away whatever minuscule amount of Republican votes there might be in 2024. Do you agree with that entire layout?

BUCK: No, I think she’s gonna be an MSNBC contributor in just a matter of a few months here, and you’re gonna see her on the —

CLAY: That’s probably right.

BUCK: — on the Democrat, anti-Republican networks. Because there’s a whole cottage industry now, I mean, there’s this whole segment of the political media that is the “former Republican who hates Trump.” Now, if they had limited themselves in this capacity ’cause we’ve seen this play out over a number of years — Liz Cheney is a little different, but some of the others that we’ve seen, it’s very clear, whether they’re pundits or politicians. If they limit themselves to their criticisms of Trump, I think they’re wrong, I think they’re delusional and kind of maniacal about it; but at least there’s a discussion to be had. You can say Trump broke you, but, okay, you are still a Republican. You just hate Trump.

But what you actually see with the Never Trumpers, what you see and you’re going to see, I assure you, with Liz Cheney is all of a sudden they have these strange — these strange new comrades. All of a sudden they are pro-choice. All of a sudden they are attacking, you know, Second Amendment issues or, you know, they want gun control. They start reverting to the other — or, rather, they start transferring and going over to the other side entirely. And it’s appalling.

I mean, Liz Cheney is not only doing the work of Pelosi — and she’s — notice she never says, “Guys, this actually is overblown. Calling it an insurrection is kind of crazy. But I still think we need to get to the bottom of the security lapses that day.” No. Instead it’s, how can I be the most useful tool for the Democrats so CNN anchors and Pelosi and Schumer will give me a little golf clap at the end of the day. And I guarantee you she’s gonna start to push more and more for Democrat policies ’cause this is what happens to these people.

It’s all about them, actually. The great irony of the Never Trumpers is that it started out with, “Oh, I’m just all about principle,” then you realize, no. You joined the Lincoln Project. You do whatever gets you the biggest paycheck. It’s all about them and their egos. And Trump usually hurt their little bruised egos, which is why they went so Captain Ahab against them in the first place.

CLAY: And you’ve already seen that Liz Cheney is saying I don’t think I could support Ron DeSantis, either.

BUCK: I had forgot about that. It’s the perfect example.

CLAY: They are argue that it’s Trump and he is such a unique threat to democracy that they can no longer be Republicans. And you’re like, okay. Well, you can make that argument. I think you’re being a bit histrionic. I think you’re grabbing your pearls and falling on your fainting couch. I think every single person who has done that in the Republican Party about Trump is artificially exaggerating their disdain for Trump. And then it spreads quickly to, you know, okay, Trump decides I’m not gonna run for president. That’s not gonna happen. Trump’s gonna run. But let’s just say that he says, you know what? I’m not as healthy as I hoped I’d be and I’m gonna step out, then Ron DeSantis is the presumptive frontrunner. And then Liz Cheney comes out and says, well, I’ve got — she’s already said it, which is what’s so crazy — but she would say, oh, I’ve got serious reservations about Ron DeSantis too. He’s a Trump-like candidate, right? And effectively what she’s gonna be is a tool for people that hate Republicans and they’re gonna use her and she’s gonna let herself being used.

BUCK: Liz Cheney, Adam Kinzinger, many others, they aren’t actually principled Republicans. This is what they always try to cling to. They are conservative apostates. They have renounced and abandoned their belief system over Donald Trump, which makes you wonder, how much could you ever have believed any of this stuff?

I guarantee you Liz Cheney now, when she goes off into public life after this, after her annihilation, thanks to the voters of Wyoming that we all know is coming now — and please, make sure you get out to our audience in Wyoming. Not a big state, not a big population. Make sure. Don’t leave this to others. If the libs can pull this off, it’s just a thumb in the eye of Republicans. Can you imagine your job every day is to wake up and antagonize and undermine the entire movement that you allegedly devoted your life to. I mean, this is why Never Trumpers, I think, have all gone through different stages of a public nervous breakdown. Because eventually they realize — or we realize, what do they actually stand for, exactly? Hatred of Trump is their one mobilizing and motivating principle? That’s bizarre.

CLAY: I think a question is how do they reenter as Republicans? It’s one thing if you — like, why we have primary season. If somebody doesn’t like Donald Trump, I encourage them to run. Ron DeSantis, encourage you to run. Ted Cruz. Like, that’s the purpose of a primary, is you find out who the best candidate is. And it can be sometimes a difficult battle. But then the person who emerges — I really do believe this, Buck — the person who emerges from a difficult primary is a better candidate because they have managed to hone their message, they’ve gotten better at responding to attacks, they’ve gotten better on the debate stage, they are a far better candidate, in my experience, watching them, than they are if they go through unchallenged, unabated. And so, okay, if you want to run, that’s fine. But how are you gonna come back?

Who is the Republican candidate post-Trump — ’cause there will be one. It could happen in ’24. It certainly gonna happen in ’28. And you’re suddenly gonna say, oh, you know what? I’m back. Hey, forget about those hundreds of millions of dollars that I spent, billions of dollars, maybe, by that time, to try to keep Donald Trump from being able to represent Republicans. “Oh, by the way, I’m back. Hey, let’s be one big, happy family again,” I don’t know how that works.

BUCK: Never Trumper is built on a lie, okay? The whole movement, all the people, oh, I — and the people who turned on Trump after January 6th who worked for him, this is all built on a lie. And you will see the lie play out. You don’t have to take my word for it, everybody. You’ll see this yourselves. The people who all of a sudden have this — they get the strange newfound respect of the Democrats because they’re so principled.

Give it time. They will be doing campaign ads for Beto O’Rourke. Give it time; they will be advocating for the Green New Deal and showing up at fundraisers alongside AOC. And then CNN will put them on as GOP strategist or, you know, GOP strategist. I mean, this is like the Ana Navarro, whatever show she’s on now, all she does is the libs’ bidding. It’s pathetic. But she gets to say, she’s a former Republican who’s the real deal. So then she takes orders from the left and amuses them in the process. Guarantee you, folks, you will see this with all of them. Everybody who starts out so maniacally anti-Trump becomes a lib.