BUCK: We have somebody who really understands exactly what’s going on with this, the political dynamics, the national-level dynamics for Canada, Jordan Peterson is with us now. He is a clinical psychologist, author, podcaster, and we are very pleased that he’s joining us. Jordan, thank you so much for calling in.

PETERSON: Thanks for the invitation.

BUCK: What do you see happening right now, Jordan? What does this mean when the Trudeau regime invokes the Emergencies Act because of the trucker convoy in Ottawa, and how do you see this playing out?

PETERSON: Well, even the Toronto Star today, the editorial board at the Toronto Star — which is a newspaper as close to a government mouthpiece as can possibly be imagined — came out and stated forthrightly today that this showed a complete breakdown of leadership and that it was a catastrophic error. So, I think the net result will likely be the cessation of the Trudeau government.

That’s my guess. I’ve talked to the truckers to some degree this morning, and nothing has really changed on the ground for them in Ottawa. There’s no evidence of more intense enforcement of the hypothetical laws that now govern Canada. So, I think that our prime minister, in his juvenile manner, has made a fatal error.

CLAY: Jordan, I appreciate coming on with us. I’m curious what you feel ’cause you travel quite a lot, and historically Americans would think of Canada as being a more laid-back, easygoing version of America, right, where everybody’s pretty compatible. And this idea of the division that we are seeing right now is, frankly, kind of staggering. For you as a Canadian, is it also kind of crazy to you — ’cause I know you’ve been back and forth to the United States more — to see the United States as a more normal, easygoing country? Even New York and California which are very restrictive seem pretty open, I would imagine, to Canadians. What’s going on? How did Canada get here?

PETERSON: Well, the Canadian founding principles are peace, order, and good government, rather than right to life, liberty, and happiness. And so our country has always been predicated on a kind of moderate stability. And for decades, for generations it was perfectly reasonable for Canadians to be trusting of their fundamental institutions — educational institutions, media institutions, provincial government, municipal government, federal government.

Everything was reliable and worked moderately to extremely well, and so Canadians could be justified in their trust of all those systems. And a lot of that is being turned on its head in the last few years to a degree that, well, that’s almost unimaginable especially, perhaps, as a consequence of media collusion with the government and the inability of ordinary people to obtain accurate information from once-reliable news sources.

I think everyone in Canada is in utter shock at all of this, and Canadians are being called upon to make a decision, which is either their fundamental governing institutions have become in some sense frighteningly unreliable, or there’s something wrong with the truckers, and it’s easy for many Canadians to believe the latter. But unfortunately (chuckles), the truth of the matter is that the former is true.

Now, I’m hoping that peaceful heads and wisdom will prevail and that this will be handled in a typically Canadian way, which is that (audio drop) through and things will return to something approximating normal. But, yeah, it’s unprecedented times in Canada. The degree of division in the country is higher, I would say, even than during the separatist crises during the last few decades.

BUCK: We’re speaking to Jordan Peterson, author, podcaster, and psychologist. Many of you are certainly familiar with his books and his work in the past. Jordan, do you think that there is a high probability that Trudeau at some point is just gonna rely on the brute force of sending in law enforcement to remove these protesters, including violently, and do you think that they will go through with that?

PETERSON: I think he’s going to try that. Well, that’s the real question. It isn’t obvious to me that he actually has enough control of that. The city of Ottawa tried to get the tow truckers to tow the rigs out of Ottawa (audio drops) I believe they all (audio drops) Trudeau said yesterday (audio drops) compel ordinary citizens (audio drops) people who drive tow trucks (audio drops) to comply with his now Draconian legislation.

But it isn’t obvious to me that he understands who he’s dealing with. The people who do that sort of job aren’t easily pushed around — like, seriously they’re not easily pushed around and I (audio drops) accustomed to dealing with people who will bend a knee, let’s say (audio drops) all that the police, the military, the tow truckers — the people who would have to put boots on the ground to stop this — are going to be willing to use that kind of force.

We’ll see, but I don’t think it’s probable. And even if that does happen, the optics are going to be terrible because the people in Ottawa, the truckers, are, by and large, decent, hardworking, committed citizens who’ve been pushed beyond their capacity to tolerate these invasive mandates, which have been described as illegal by one of the drafters of our charter of rights, the only living signatory to the charter of rights. It isn’t obvious that Trudeau has the upper hand, and I do really believe that the most likely outcome is his government will fall.

CLAY: That’s what I want to follow up on ’cause you told us that and I think the answer to our first question — we’re talking with Jordan Peterson about the situation that is going on right now in Canada. You said that you think the most likely outcome is that Justin Trudeau’s government is going to fall. What would that look like for Americans who are listening to you right now? What would that process look like, and how would it happen in the event that you are correct and Justin Trudeau’s government does sort of fall?

PETERSON: Well, he would lose a vote of confidence in the parliament; so right now with the NDP — which is the Socialist Party in Canada — he has a majority of the (audio drops) let’s say equivalent to the representatives in the American system supporting his government, constituting his government. But if enough of his (audio drops) of the representatives that make up the Liberal Party and support him dispute his policies and turn away from his mandates — and that’s starting to happen — then he’ll lose a majority in the house, and he’ll have to call an election. He’ll have to resign. The governor-general would call upon him to resign — it’s a motion of non-confidence — and then he would have to call an election.

BUCK: Jordan, what is your message —

PETERSON: As a consequence of that, his leadership would be replaced.

BUCK: Jordan, what is your message to the truckers now?

PETERSON: Keep your heads. Keep your heads, gents. Don’t take the bait. Don’t take the provocation. Work out an exit strategy as carefully as you possibly can. Make your conditions for satisfaction clearly known — and above all, keep doing the peaceful things that you’ve been doing so remarkably and hold that firmly in mind, that commitment firmly in mind.

CLAY: Is there any way that Justin Trudeau gives in, Jordan? Because when you look right now at what’s going on, for instance, in the United States, so many states are finally saying, “Hey, we’re lifting mask requirements. We’re lifting vaccine mandates.” I think by the time Joe Biden speaks at the State of the Union on March 1st, he’s going to basically have an entire country that is demanding a return to normalcy, and we’re seeing that, obviously.

Is there any way Justin Trudeau argues, “Hey, the science has changed; I’m going to change the retirements that exist in Canada” and try to claim it’s the science changing not the pressure from the truckers? Is there a way out, in other words, for Trudeau other than violently, potentially, removing these truckers from where they are protesting?

PETERSON: Well, many of the provinces in Canada — so the equivalent of American states — have already announced the sequential cessation of the vaccine. And that’s all happened within the last week (audio drops) as a direct consequence of their protest pressure and the change in conservative leadership at the federal level ’cause that party dispensed with its previous (audio drops) as a consequence I would say of these protests.

So the provinces, many of the provinces have started to back (audio drops) mandates especially the ones who are run by more conservative politicians (audio drops) really good sign, and the provinces in Canada have a lot of power and I suspect more of them will shift in that direction in the next couple of days or certainly in the next weeks. (Audio drops) harder, harder for Trudeau to take a moderate (audio drops). I suspect he still could, although it isn’t obvious that he can do (audio drops) and still retain any credibility.

It would be the best pathway forward. But my observations indicate that he’s more than prepared to double down. I’ve never been an admirer of Trudeau. I think he (audio drops) office through false pretenses, meaning that he had a well-known family name because his father was the prime minister for many years, and he has this (audio drops) reputation in Canada that the Kennedys and the Bushes do in the United States.

But he had none of the training or education and I would say competence or perhaps knowledge and wisdom necessary to do a job as difficult as being prime minister. And yet he was perfectly willing to adopt the role. And I think we’re seeing that playing out in his policy decisions. He’s a juvenile person, in my estimation, and I’m not saying lightly. I’ve watched him very (audio drops) and certainly his actions over the last three weeks have been… No matter how badly you think he could have managed it, he managed to manage it worse. I’m not saying that with any degree of triumph. I think it’s a catastrophe for the country.

BUCK: Jordan Peterson, thank you so much for joining us here. If you haven’t already, check out Jordan’s 12 Rules for Life or Beyond Order, any of his fantastic books and his podcast. Jordan, thank you for making the time.

PETERSON: Yeah, well, thanks very much for the invitation and thank you to all of you who are listening.

CLAY: That is Jordan Peterson.