CLAY: Buck, the story that is ricocheting everywhere — and he is doing his media roundtables right now, CNN, NBC, ESPN, basically every direction you look — is former Miami Dolphins head coach Brian Flores has sued the NFL alleging racial discrimination in coaching. I know you are not a monster NFL fan — far from it, Buck — but this story has ricocheted through so much of the media establishment that it’s almost impossible to ignore. I went on Fox & Friends this morning and talked about it from a legal perspective, but I want to start with this, Buck. Even you are like, “Wow. This is kind of a big story.”
BUCK: Yeah, of course. Well, because it comes, Clay, at a time where there’s already this huge national conversation because of Biden explicitly declaring —
CLAY: That’s right.
BUCK: — and, as you have rightly pointed out, that over 95% of lawyers or people from the legal profession will not even be thought of as a possible Supreme Court pick. We also have the case making its way through the Supreme Court — and I believe we are going to get a decision here in June — that will say affirmative action… I mean, this is plain, letter of-the-law stuff.
Affirmative action is not equal protection under the law. It should be and is unconstitutional, that there was a time — because of whether it’s liberals’ white guilt or whatever the rationalization was — that people preferred a certain policy outcome with affirmative action does not make it constitutional, flatly, plainly, clearly. So, with all of that background, now we have — and I thought it was fascinating, Clay, ’cause I was learning.
After he had already done all this tremendously rarefied and highly successful stuff in the NFL, now he’s saying that he’s being discriminated against and in fact he always feels like he has to be better than his counterparts? Based on what? Where does this come from?
CLAY: So the complaint is a mess, and this is me analyzing it from a legal perspective. He alleges that he is being racially discriminated against. Now, background for Brian Flores. At the age of 38 years old, after having the job of linebackers coach for the New England Patriots and Bill Belichick — who is roundly considered the greatest NFL coach of all time. If you work for Bill Belichick, you have a very good chance of getting a head coach job somewhere.
That has been the case for many people, white or black. So Brian Flores gets hired at the age of 38 years old to a multimillion-dollar head coaching contract with the Miami Dolphins. He is there for three years, and he just got fired in the off-season. That surprised some people. But there was a lot of behind-the-scenes issues evidently inside of Miami both with player and coach relationships that the owner there — Steven Ross, of the Dolphins, a billionaire — decided to move on and hire a new coach.
Then Brian Flores is interviewing. There are, right now, five open head coaching jobs in the NFL. Lots of guys got fired, and he is interviewing for the New York Giants, and Brian Daboll is hired who is offensive coordinator of the Buffalo Bills, and there is an allegation that — based on a text message from Bill Belichick — Brian Flores was not really considered for the job that they already knew who they were going to hire.
He also says that several years ago, he had an interview with the Denver Broncos, and he’s alleging that John Elway — who is one of the great quarterbacks in NFL history and an executive with the Broncos — was hung over and that he didn’t feel like he was taking it very seriously. Based on those details, he’s arguing that he has been racially discriminated against.
Now, to me when I read this complaint and I read the complaint, there’s almost no evidence of racial discrimination in this entire complaint. That is… I don’t know about you, Buck. I’ve gone on interviews before where I haven’t gotten the job for what I interviewed for, and that was disappointing.
BUCK: There’s actually a storyline for fans of the show The Office, which I do think is a great show, for whatever that’s worth.
CLAY: It’s fantastic.
BUCK: There’s storyline where Michael Scott — who is played by Steve Carell, I think, amazingly well — goes in for an interview for the Dunder Mifflin executive role, and later on in deposition it comes out that he was never really under consideration for the job, but they wanted give him the shot, right? So this is not a new thing in corporate America where you go in for an interview and they think they already have somebody else picked.
And let me just say, unless there is actually — and to your point about the legalities of this and the reality of it contractually and otherwise, unless they’ve already made an offer, even if they think they know who they’re going to pick, the willingness to give you an interview always leaves open the possibility that minds will be changed. So there’s also an assumption built into all this that it could change, even if they had picked — or maybe they can make an offer and even rescind it if they found a better candidate based upon whatever the contractual agreement is they put forward initially. So we’ve all been there.
CLAY: Yes.
BUCK: And, by the way, in the media world everything that we deal with, Clay, at some level is unfair Meaning that there’s a lot of subjectivity. Meaning who’s gonna be this, who’s gonna be the next big this or that. You learn to deal with it. You don’t turn around and just claim that there’s some force arrayed against you, especially if you’ve been remarkably successful as this guy has.
I mean, 38-year-olds, multimillionaire, head coach the NFL, doesn’t get the job he wants and now the NFL is racist? Based on what? I mean, speaking of what this guy’s been saying, I mentioned to you he’s going around now as part of his TV show. He’s all over the media saying he always has to be better than his colleagues in the same place. Based on what? Where does that come from?
CLAY: That’s also the job of competition. You have to be better than your colleagues in the NFL in order to win. That’s sports.
BUCK: Oh, but he means he has to be better just to be on the same playing field as others, essentially. “For me to be a head coach, I had to be 10 times the head coach of other head coaches,” is basically the subtext here. That’s… Based on what?
“Also, by the way, how is it that you were poised to get another head coaching job; you just didn’t get the one that you wanted with the Giants?” And also, there is no business, Buck, in the history of the world that has created more black millionaires than the NFL. Truly in the history of the world, 70-some-odd percent of all NFL players are black. And really what this comes down to is an argument that there needs to be more black coaches.
It’s very similar to the Supreme Court, honestly, where you almost get the sense that there is an idea that there needs to be a quota. But what’s fascinating about this to me is, first of all, everybody in America should be able to compete evenly to be an NFL head coach, right? White, black, Asian, Hispanic. That’s what I believe. The black population is around 12% of the overall population.
So they are wildly overrepresented as NFL players, but most coaches start at the age of 22 or 23 and work themselves up for decades to be eligible to become a head coach. So to me, the overall head coaches in the NFL should roughly approximate not what the player percentage is — ’cause most players never become coaches — but what the overall population of interested coaches are in the United States.
BUCK: And let’s remember, the NFL is — professional sports is — one of the few places where you have a meritocracy in real time with real consequences. I do know enough about it. I grew up watching the Knicks and my family are Giants fans, and I spent way too much time in my mind watching professional sports, but I’ve seen enough to know what goes on and I’m aware of the size of the contracts, Clay. When you’re paying somebody… I just saw Neymar, the soccer player, signed a $200 million contract.
CLAY: Yes.
BUCK: Okay? When you’re paying somebody in the NFL… I mean, that’s soccer, granted.
CLAY: There are $100 million guys in the NFL.
BUCK: Exactly. When you’re paying somebody $100 million, you just want the best. You’re doing everything you can to get the absolute best, and so when you’re trying to assess — and there’s always going to be some degree of subjectivity. That’s what I meant about the media aspect, right? We have tons of super-talented colleagues and media on TV and radio and podcasts, whatever. It’s not a perfect business, but you have to be good. But there are gonna be some decisions made. In the NFL they’re putting the best players they can possibly get out on the field because there’s a lot of money on it and there’s a lot of money in winning.
CLAY: And there’s no BS on it. You can tell who’s better or not.
It just defies comprehension, especially given what you see with the players on the field. They’re like, “Who’s the best tight end? Who’s the best quarterback? Who’s the best wide receiver?” and that’s all that matters, right? But with coaching, all of a sudden, they’re gonna take a different approach? I don’t buy it.
CLAY: You’re 100% right there. And, Buck, even if some teams were doing that, then by being not racist you would gain a competitive advantage, right? If there are teams out there that are taking talented minority coaches off the board because of racism? Okay, I don’t believe that’s happening, but if it were happening, then you would have a competitive advantage against them because you would be able to hire those coaches and your team would win more.
It’s not only that racism is wrong. It’s that purely on a competitive basis, if your competitor is racist, you would get to beat them more often. And I just don’t buy, based on how competitive every scintilla of the NFL is, that any team is choosing not to go with the best possible candidate whether it’s for a kicker or whether it’s for a GM or whether it’s for a quarterback or whether it’s for a coach.
BREAK TRANSCRIPT
BUCK: This is pretty remarkable. A former NFL Players Association president on CNN — George Martin, I believe, is his name, yes. He said… You know what, actually? Clay, I’m just gonna let him say it.
CLAY: Yes.
BUCK: Play 16.
JOHN BERMAN: The league is 70% black players. There is currently one black head coach. How do you see this?
GEORGE MARTIN: Well, it’s a statistical anomaly, first of all, and there’s no way to justify that the kind of inequity, and that’s something that African-American players have — and coaches have — had to deal with for years now. And with this lawsuit, I mean, it’s obvious that Brian is gonna become the Rosa Parks of the NFL, and rightly so. It took an inordinate amount of courage for him to file this lawsuit and is to stand up against one of the largest corporations in the world and — and talk about the fact that there is less opportunity for people with of color than there are otherwise.
BUCK: So, Clay, I’ll just say this, ‘caues you’re a truly unique and lone voice in the sports media world on these things in so many ways. First of all, this guy calling Brian Flores the Rosa Parks.
CLAY: No pushback, Buck, which is symptomatic of what happens.
BUCK: Of course. To be a multimillionaire, former coach, you’re still, you know, likely to get a very senior and very highly paid coaching position in the NFL? You know, it’s somehow similar to the fight against true racism and segregation in the South. I mean, it’s outrageous. But I’m just gonna say, man: This is why conservatives, we go through these phases where we say, “They’re kneeling. They’re anti-cop in the NFL.
“They’re anti-cop in the NBA. There’s all this woke stuff. I’m never watching it again.” I have so many people writing me, “I’m never watching the NFL again.” I’m done with it, man. I feel like you fight it from the inside because you don’t want to give up sports ’cause you love sports. For me, I sit here and I see this, and I see a lot of overpaid people who are ungrateful to the country that supports them and gave them this opportunity. I don’t know. I’ve had enough. I can’t seem to get around it.
CLAY: We had that conversation on the sports show back in the day, and my thing is if you love something — and I understand if you’re a casual, “Hey, I’m gonna watch the NFL or I’m gonna watch something on Netflix,” or whatever it might be. I’m a die-hard sports fan. I’m always going to be a die-hard sports fan. So my perspective is if you love something, then you try and fight to preserve what you love in that.
And what I love in sports is that all of us — white, black, Asian, Hispanic, gay, straight, male, female — can all pursue excellence by a common set of rules. I love the feeling Buck, and I’ll never shake it, of being in an arena or being in a stadium watching your favorite team play and how it brings everyone together. I’m never going to lose that feeling, and I’m never going to lose that desire to try to make sports something that everybody can enjoy.
But when I see the lawsuit like what Brian Flores is saying here, Buck, he is selling the idea that the NFL is fundamentally a racist organization. And I think it’s 100% the opposite of that, because the NFL, as I’ve said, has made more black millionaires than ever before. They have lifted tons of people out of poverty and allowed them to have better lives than they otherwise would have in so many different fascinates of future life after football. Just disappointing to see what I believe are lies here.
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