BUCK: Interview last night on NBC News with Lieutenant Michael Byrd, who it’s been rumored on the internet for a while that he was in fact the individual involved here, but he is the Capitol Hill police officer who shot Ashli Babbitt in the neck. Now, Clay and I… You know, I’ve had some background in law enforcement and baseline tactically training; Clay, obviously, is a lawyer.

We wanted to go through some of this, and really… First of all, they could have tried to make it a more favorable platform for Officer Byrd’s narrative. You’ll hear that yourself. We want to take this piece by piece and address it. For me, the whole thing is outrageous because the politics involved are quite clear in terms of how this has been handled. Let’s start with Michael Byrd saying that he showed tremendous courage in the shooting.

BYRD: Of course I do! Uhhh, that is a very vital point, and it’s something that, uh, is frightening. I believe I showed the, uhh, utmost courage on January 6, and it’s time for me to do that now.

BUCK: The utmost courage, Clay. Have you heard any of the officers involved in fatal shootings that got a lot of national attention — and including times when an assailant was reaching for a gun or going for a knife. Have you heard any of them ever say, “Well, I showed tremendous courage in shooting that person”?

CLAY: No. And if they did, we already have protests, but there would be mass rioting in the streets. I want to hear all these quotes, and I want our audience to hear them all, ’cause I think with everything going on with Afghanistan, reasonably, this story has kind of slid under the radar. But I want to keep playing these quotes, and I just want you, as you listen to these quotes, just think what the reaction would be from Black Lives Matter if a white police officer who shot an unarmed protester had said all of these things, what the reaction would be compared to the comparative crickets in response to this. Let’s just keep playing these clips, because, again, I think a large part of our audience has not heard all of these quotes. And certainly, as you said, Buck, this gentleman had not even been named prior to this interview that he just decided to do.

BUCK: Here he is discussing that he believed Ashli Babbitt was posing an imminent threat. Remember, this is an unarmed woman still on the other side of the door trying to break in and open a door. He has the gun drawn for quite a while. He has plenty of time. He can see exactly what’s going on. It’s on video. We have video of this encounter. Here is what he says.

BYRD: I’d been yelling and screaming as loud as I was, “Please stop. Get back. Get back. Stop.” We had our weapons drawn.

LESTER HOLT: We see arm out there for a considerable amount of time! Were you wavering?

BYRD: I was taking a tactically stance. You’re ultimately hoping that your commands will be complied with — and, unfortunately, they were not.

HOLT: What did you think this individual was doing at that — at that moment?

BYRD: She was posing a threat to the United States House of Representatives!

BUCK: All right, Lawyer Clay. She’s posing a threat. How was she posing more of a threat than…? We can see in the video there are people all pressed against the door. So under this use-of-force justification that’s very specific, it seems to this circumstance — and, by the way, all morning I’ve been checking in with law enforcement friends of mine —

CLAY: Yes.

BUCK: — who are Back the Blue guys, and they say you hit a Capitol Hill police officer in the head with a rock or something, you gotta serve time. They back law enforcement. They say this is something else. Clay, if that’s a use-of-force justification, could this officer have unloaded his whole clip and shot eight people up against that door? They were all posing a threat.

CLAY: In theory, yes. In theory, that’s the point, Buck. And again, I don’t like when we put ourselves in a position where we have to microanalyze every single police officer in the moment. But I do think that we need to apply consistent standards that are equal to all police officers. We said this for a long time. Look, I am a steadfast believer that we need more police officers, defund the police the dumbest argument that’s been made in the twenty-first century in American political life.

But every police officer is not perfect. And certainly, I can’t even remember, Buck, hardly ever a police officer come out and basically call himself a hero for shooting an unarmed woman — or man, for that matter. I just can’t remember it ever happening before. And I’m thinking to myself, “What would the response have been in the media if that had ever happened?” I think we have one more clip of this gentleman who fired the shot that killed Ashli Babbitt that we should play where he says basically, Buck, if I’m not mistaken, that he saved countless lives based on his choice.

BYRD: Well, it’s disheartening. If he was in the room or anywhere and I’m responsible for him, I was prepared to do the same thing for him and his family.

HOLT: Would you have his back today if you were so assigned?

BYRD: I sure would, ’cause it’s my job.

BUCK: All right, Clay, that’s on me. I fired the wrong one there, but that was in response to the question about Donald Trump saying that he’s a murderer.

CLAY: Yeah.

BUCK: Trump said that Lieutenant Byrd’s a murderer but to the one you brought up he did say he saved countless lives.

BYRD: According to law, it does not. I know based on my training and my policy what I did was appropriate.

HOLT: Have you continued to question your actions that day?

BYRD: I knew that day I followed my training, and I spent countless years preparing for such a moment. You ultimately hope that moment never occurs, but you prepare as best you can. I know that day I saved countless lives.

BUCK: How could he have saved countless lives? Let’s unpack this, Clay.

CLAY: That’s the dumbest and most ridiculous statement that he made in the entire interview to me.

BUCK: There are hundreds of rioters and, as you know, a lot of them were walking around taking selfies.

CLAY: A lot of them were grandmas with selfie sticks.

BUCK: They had selfie sticks. Okay. There were some rioters who were violent police and destroyed property. That is a fact. That’s true. Okay. How many of them actually tried to use lethal force and succeeded in doing it against anybody? The answer is zero. They didn’t actually kill anybody so what he’s saying is by shooting Ashli Babbitt in the neck there are rioters in the other parts of the facility, there are rioters swarming other parts of the Capitol complex, he saved countless lives? Really? How does that make any sense?

CLAY: It’s a total lie. And what I would say is just picture… This is what I want everybody out there listening to us to picture. Pretend that a police officer shoots a protester during Black Lives Matter. And let’s make it a white police officer who shoots a young, unarmed black person. What would the reaction be in the media if that police officer did a public interview and claimed that he saved countless lives?

There would be mass protests in the streets, and the outrage meter would be off the charts. Yet this quote comes out, sit-down interview, and I bet many of our listeners right now, the first and only time they will hear that quote will be from us on this show, Buck. I really think that. I’m not seeing it played anywhere else, hardly.

BUCK: Clay, there were thousands of officers who were wounded, some quite seriously over the course of the BLM protests —

CLAY: No doubt. Who were being directly attacked.

BUCK: — by being physically assaulted by protesters. That is what happened.

CLAY: Yes.

BUCK: Now, if you’re being punched or kicked or hit with a rock by a protester, that’s pretty clear that you’re under threat. And yet as you and I both know — especially within the dynamic you described — if a BLM protester, particularly a young, black protester —

CLAY: Yes.

BUCK: — was shot from 15 feet away for refusing a command which is essentially a anti-trespass command from a law enforcement officer —

CLAY: Yes.

BUCK: — there would be buildings burned down and —

CLAY: That’s right.

BUCK: — you’d CNN standing in front of them —

CLAY: And, by the way, that officer would a hundred percent be charged with a crime.

BUCK: — saying, “Well, we don’t really need these be buildings anyway. It’s just property. We’re just burning buildings down because people are upset.”

CLAY: “Mostly peaceful protest.” And what I am arguing for — and this is me putting my lawyer hat on, Buck — and I know this frustrates a lot of people out there. I still believe in the idea of justice being blind. That’s why Lady Justice, when you look at the sales of justice, is wearing a blindfold because we have to look at all the facts. And when I was trained in lawless is only three things matter in every case: The facts, the facts, the facts.

The facts are now out entirely about this case. And are we applying the same standards of justice to this Capitol Hill police officer as we would in other circumstances? I think the answer is we are not. And the reason why we’re not is because of politics. And I understand that Ashli Babbitt was not without flaw. Right? I’m not claiming that he was 100% innocent in this scenario.

But I understand why her family has filed this $10 million wrongful death lawsuit and why they’re looking around and saying, “Wait a minute. If you change the politics in this scenario, our son or daughter protesting for Black Lives Matter would be a martyr and there will be significant charges probably brought against this police officer.”

But in this situation, that’s not occurring, and I think these are all legitimate and serious and real questions which people in our position should be discussing in an honest fashion with their audience, and I bet, Buck, we are one of the only shows out there that will actually do this anywhere today.

BUCK: And we will continue to do so.

BREAK TRANSCRIPT

BUCK: Brad in South Dakota, what do you got for us?

CALLER: Hi, Clay and Buck. Love the show. Thanks for taking the call. I’m a retired inner-city cop, spent 21 years in an area near Los Angeles. I’ve been shot at, punched, kicked, scratched, clawed, crashed into. I was deployed to the L.A. riots in 1993. I’d like to offer a little perspective on the Babbitt shooting.

CLAY: Yes.

CALLER: Number one, this man is not a hero at all. In my opinion and the opinion of every cop I know, he’s a coward. No manual, no training ever would say in a crowded riot, disorderly situation like that, would you indiscriminately crank a round off into the middle of that crowd without knowing who you’re firing at or what you’re doing. And, by the way, he claims he was there to protect the congresspeople and this and that and the other thing. I got a question, gentlemen — and nobody’s talked about the this. Think about this for a minute. If that guy was really believing that, why crank only one round off? Why not kill every one of those people as they’re climbing through the window?

CLAY: Yeah.

BUCK: This is what I’ve been saying.

CALLER: Why only one shot?

BUCK: Based on… You tell me. You’re actual retired law enforcement. Based on the use-of-force justification here, he could have shot the six people up against that door, killed them, too, right? What am I missing?

CALLER: You’re not missing anything, Buck. The whole thing is it just disgusts me as a retired cop to hear this guy talk to himself as a hero. That’s despicable no matter what the situation. And second, to hear others calling him a hero. He’s not a hero. He’s a crowd. He panicked and he cranked the round off, and he knew he did wrong. That’s why he only shot one time.

BUCK: Brad, I really appreciate your important perspective.

CLAY: Great call.

BUCK: By the way, I know a bunch of law enforcement experts. People know I spent time at the NYPD. I got a career, now-retired law enforcement officer as an uncle — cop, beat cop. Clay, they’re all saying the same thing. So people say, “Oh, this absolutely is a clear-cut case.” It absolutely is not a clear-cut case, the use of force.

Let me also say one other thing. I have never, nor has any conservative that I know. They do not celebrate when there’s a lethal use of force.

CLAY: Amen.

BUCK: It’s always a tragedy.

CLAY: Yes.

BUCK: There were people celebrating this guy as if, you know, he shot Osama Bin Laden on social media yesterday. Leftists are psychopaths.

CLAY: And the fact that he would even claim that he saved countless lives is a hundred percent reputed by what actually happened on that day. hardly anybody’s even discussing this story because of the mess that’s going on in Afghanistan and because of covid.