BUCK: Senator Paul, thanks for being here.

SEN. PAUL: Hey, guys, thanks for having me.

BUCK: So let’s start with Milley, actually. We want to talk to you about covid, and you’ve been somebody who’s trying to get real answers both about the policies of Fauciism and also the origins of covid-19 and the lab leak theory. But first, it seems to me… I mean, I was a CIA guy. If I had seen something like this going on when I was back in the federal service, Senator, with what General Milley did to President Trump, it would have been deeply concerning. Today, they’re saying he’s a hero on the left. What do you make of it?

SEN. PAUL: I think he should be interviewed today under polygraph and asked whether or not he told the Chinese generals or government that President Trump could imminently attack and that he was going to try to prevent that. The real big danger is, one, you go outside of the chain of command. We have civilian command of our military. It’s a very important part of the way our structure is set up.

But second of all, if you are insinuating that the president is a loose cannon and could attack China, an accident could happen. You know, every day we launch things into space that are satellites and nonmilitary weapons. But what if one of those was seen as a military launch because Milley has now teed the Chinese up to think, “Well, Trump could actually do this”?

So it’s real a disservice and could actually lead to accidental nuclear war by getting the Chinese on alert to think something was gonna happen. There’s no indication other than Milley’s warped sense of things that actually anything like that could have happened.

So, no, it’s not surprising the left are rallying. But I think he should be interviewed today under polygraph. And if it was true that he was actually insinuating that the president could attack China, he should be immediately removed and never anywhere close to a command position again.

CLAY: Senator Paul, appreciate you coming on with us. This is Clay. When you get Dr. Fauci back under oath, given the further documents that have come out from the Intercept, do you believe that he will still be able to deny gain-of-function research dollars from our tax support there, and when do you expect him to testify under oath again?

SEN. PAUL: He’s never answered the question. He says anybody who accuses him of supporting it could be lying, but he’s actually publicly on many occasions — he’s been quoted in the Washington Post — as being in favor of gain-of-function. He’s been quoted as saying that even should a pandemic occur, that this type of research is worthwhile. Now he’s changing his mind. But there has been a cover-up here.

Most certainly on January 31st of year, he was emailing out there the night covering up his tracks and trying to get everybody on the same page that this didn’t come from the Wuhan lab, because he knew if it came from the lab, that his funding of the lab would come into question and so he’d have responsibility, at the very least moral responsibility for this lab and for this leak — and for this pandemic, frankly.

So the debate goes on. But no one on the left is ever asking the question; no one on the right is allowed to interview him. The people on the left who interview him yuk it up and chortle and say everybody’s a conspiracy theorist who doesn’t agree with him. But they never ask the tough questions. Even the other day he was finally on CNN asked a question about natural immunity from those were infected.

CLAY: Yes.

SEN. PAUL: And he said, “oh, that’s an interesting question. We should look into that.” Really? You’re in charge of the whole damn thing and you’ve been in charge for two years (laughs), and you haven’t looked into natural immunity? Over a hundred million Americans have gotten infected, and you’re trying to mandate vaccines on people who worked in the hospitals and protected us and took care of us without a vaccine, before the vaccine, who got covid?

You’re trying to force them to be vaccinated? No, I think it’s inexcusable. But probably the worst thing is this: He still trusts the Chinese, and the FOIA request — the Freedom of Information — from The Intercept reveals that there’s still money going. There’s a grant from 2020 to 2025. There’s still U.S. taxpayer dollars going to the Wuhan lab.

BUCK: We’re speaking to Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator Paul, the future here as you see it when we have a federal mandate/testing requirement — and already a bit of foreshadowing from Fauci among others of the possibility of a vaccine passport mandate for flying on planes domestically. Where do you think this is going, and at what point do you expect that enough Americans will finally see this for what it is that they won’t be able to keep pushing these mandates, lockdowns, and so-called mitigation measures?

SEN. PAUL: I’m against any and all of the mandates. Most of the mandates haven’t worked, really. If you look at any mask mandate or any social distancing mandate, the incidence of the disease went up after each mandate. There’s no evidence. If you compare all the areas that have severe mandates versus those who have lax mandates, there’s no correlation with death or incidence of the disease.

So really, they do these things without any proof that any of them work. The thing is that if you’re doing the mandate and you’re ignoring the science of natural immunity that you get after infection, then you’re really not obeying the science. I don’t think the courts are very good with the freedom argument. The freedom argument is that we live in a free country; leave me the heck alone.

But they do sometimes have a reasonableness standard, if the regulation is not reasonable. So if it’s arbitrary and capricious, which I think it is if you don’t count the hundred million people who have been infected and the studies are all showing they have at least as good, maybe even better immunity than the vaccine.

Once again, not an argument against the vaccine, but an argument that if you’ve gotten this and survived that we should count your immunity. It should count for something. But if you don’t count that at all and you completely discount that, is it now an arbitrary doctrine that is not reasonable? I think we have a decent chance with that in the courts.

CLAY: Senator Paul, we had Dr. Makary on yesterday from Johns Hopkins. He wrote an article — I’m sure you saw it — in the Wall Street Journal, talking some about natural immunity. And yesterday when we talked to him, I raised the question of chicken pox. And I think this is an important analogy because a lot of people out there listening to us especially if they’re around our age, senator, had chicken pox when they were a kid.

And the CDC specifically says, according to Dr. Makary, on their website that if you had chicken pox, you don’t need to get the chicken pox vaccine — there now is a chicken pox vaccine — because you have natural mutiny. Yet they are saying the exact opposite, going to your “arbitrary and capricious” standard, as it pertains to the covid vaccine mandate. As a doctor, is there any reason that you can see for a difference between chicken pox and covid when it comes to natural immunity?

SEN. PAUL: Well, we used to use our brain in these things. We used to think them through. For example, the flu vaccine was not mandated for children because children weren’t severely affected by the flu. It was more risky for older folks who had other comorbidities. So really up until recently the flu vaccine was never recommended.

There are some who will argue that there’s a monetary interest in spreading the mandates to other people. I don’t know if that’s what motivates people, but it concerns me. With chicken pox and other things that are not deadly, it’s kind of hard to argue for some kind of mandate where you’re not allowed to go to school; you’re not allowed to travel.

With covid, if you’re under 25, the death rate is about one in a million. So that’s less than being struck by lightning. So really are we going to mandate masks, mandate vaccines for nondeadly diseases? Sure, it’s deadly for other people, but the rest of us can take a vaccine if we want to. The vaccine’s not perfect, either.

I try to mention in every interview that there is a treatment if you get sick. Dr. Fauci doesn’t mention this. The government doesn’t mention this. But you have to ask your doctor, particularly if you’re developing a bronchitis and they’re thinking about putting you in the hospital. Please ask your doctor about IV monoclonal antibodies. Because if they admit you wanted to, Dr. Fauci and the government doctors have for bid the hospitals from giving you IV monoclonal antibodies.

Their argument is it doesn’t work as well. That’s perhaps true. But if you’ve got a 10% chance that it works or a 20% chance that it works and it keeps you off of the ventilator, wouldn’t you want to try monoclonal antibodies? But as it stands right now, if you get admitted — once they roll you through the doorway from the ER to the main hospital — they won’t give it to you.

So, by all means, if you have somebody who gets sick and they’re going to the ER, ask them in the ER. Ask the doctor, “Can I have the monoclonal antibodies?” before you admit, maybe (chuckling), because once they admit you, it’s this boneheaded government rule — an absolute rule — they will not give you the monoclonal antibodies.

BUCK: We’re speaking to Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator, it’s Buck. I want to know if you think there’s gonna be a push in some of the blue states… I mean, Gavin Newsom is still gonna be the governor of California this winter; Kathy Hochul up in New York replacing former Governor Cuomo now. Do you think that we could go into another period of lockdowns here?

SEN. PAUL: Yeah, I think what’s gonna happen over time is that the people who are into this Nanny State lockdown sort of way of thinking, ultimately people who believe in freedom and want to be left alone won’t go there. I mean, even now you can travel across the country. I live in a state ruled by a Democrat governor, and it’s different here.

If I go to Florida or Texas — I just visited my family in Texas — there’s freedom there and people are doing as they wish, taking their risks in a free society. Everybody has risks every day and they’re assessing their risks, been vaccinated, particularly the young people. Look at the football games across the country.

People are trying to go back to enjoying their life. They’re not being, you know, careless. Over age 65, 90% of people have been vaccinated. It’s a huge success. In what world do more than 90% of the people ever agree to something? Over age 50, it’s about 75% of people who’ve gotten vaccinated. They say this is a failure?

It’s an absolute success, and they’re wanting to force people now that aren’t at high risk to get vaccinated — and for that, you have to prove to them, and keep proving to them, that the vaccine is almost perfect; there’s almost no chance of dying below age 25. You’ve gotta really convince people that it’s almost perfect to take it.

And people… Some have already decided. But my goodness I wouldn’t force a healthy person, particularly if they had covid three months ago. What kind of doctor would try to force them to get vaccinated if they’ve already had the disease, when the studies are showing that natural immunity is as good or better than the vaccine?

CLAY: All right, Senator Paul, let’s pretend that you are president of the United States right now — and I think there’s a lot of people listening right now that would say, “My God. That would be amazing.” But let’s pretend that you were. What would your policy for covid be, and how different would it be from what the Joe Biden administration and Dr. Fauci are doing right now?

BUCK:

SEN. PAUL: It’d be one of persuasion and encouragement. I’m not anti-vaccine but I’m pro-freedom. I would give people the options and the science. The science shows that above age 65 — without question — the disease is more dangerous than the vaccine, even if everything’s not known about the vaccine. Even at a lower age, it in all likelihood behooves you to do it.

My wife got vaccinated. She hasn’t gotten the disease. She’s been exposed five times. But she got vaccinated. I’ve been exposed to the disease, I’ve gotten the disease, and I’ve chosen not to get vaccinated. But I’ve also said that if the statistics change, I’m not completely closed-minded.

If tomorrow a study comes out and says, “All the people who got it a year ago, there’s now a 3% chance that you’ll die if you get it again,” it’s like (chuckles), well maybe, I’d go ahead and get vaccinated. But if I’m finding that it’s very rare if never — almost never — that people have been if they can before are dying? You know, then I think — and with my age — I put it all together and I make a decision.

But as president in a free society, you allow people to make their decisions. It’s kind of like this. A year ago, or when it was raging in January, if you said if you’re 80 years old, ‘Should I go sit for two hours in choir practice for my church?” I would not make a rule saying you couldn’t.

But I’d probably make a public service announcement saying, “We are seeing spreading events in choir practice or when you’re in a closed space for a long period of time, and the recommendation is not to do it.” Remember when the CDC had recommendations? You know, that’s what it is. Now they have abrogated contracts for rental contracts! What kind of world do we live in what the health authorities are saying you don’t have to pay your rent? I mean, it’s a bizarre sort of Big Brother world we’re entering.

BUCK: Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky. Senator, we appreciate you making the time for us, sir, and for all the clear thinking. Thanks for being with us.

SEN. PAUL: Thanks, guys.